Тема «Help to understand»
Can someone please explain to me, what could this possibly mean?
Thanks in advance.
The quote is from an article about I-Ching I'm trying to understand. The word-by-word translation gives me the following (probably wrong) understanding: If the crowd of dragons in the sky would have no heads, then in the world there will be good fortune for everyone.If all this heavenly hosts of dragons lacked their heads, good fortune would become a fact.
Thanks in advance.
English isn't my native language :) , but I think (suppose) maybe "host" means "master"? If it possible to say "hosts
of dragons" = "masters of dragons"?
Поздновато врубился, что вопрос к инглиш-спикинг юзерам :) Хотя... может, предположение имеет смысл :)
Поздновато врубился, что вопрос к инглиш-спикинг юзерам :) Хотя... может, предположение имеет смысл :)
ioneks, as far as word-by-word translation goes I would say that your interpretation is correct. I can also relate to
Sideic's interpretation.
But, there might be a different interpretation, depending on articles' context. Would it be possible to post at least the whole paragraph?
Regards,
But, there might be a different interpretation, depending on articles' context. Would it be possible to post at least the whole paragraph?
Regards,
It's a poem, which is a description of the first hexagram of the I-Ching. Here it is, from the very start:
Sideic, any help is welcome, even from russians =)Originating from the term, piercing
advantageous, right and firm.
The dragon lurks: it is no time to act.
The dragon's in the field: now make thy pact.
Be active, watchful, using care and tact.
The dragon leaps; a bursting cataract.
The dragon ploughs the sky with pace exact.
Exceed not, dragon; Lest thy force react.
(If all this heavenly hosts of dragons lacked
their heads, good fortune would become a fact.)
"host", says Dictionary, is also "lots and lots, a bunch of" - and also someone who "hosts" a parazite.
Well, why focus of petty words? i danced on a question: something like "what's it all about?"
recieved: turning north-east [=direction of being one loves and though physical contact with them was cut - mentaly, or spiritually, it had never been.] both arms extended sideways, palms upwards -[- meaning: seeking contact with Spirit\god\inspiration]. rotating once, untill facing - well - south-west [direction of death] - thouh right hand pointing north-east, palm side-wards inward; left hand bend behind lower back,[=the place of past+past-lives traumas, or bad karma] twisting a little wierd wortex-like move, repeating it 3 times, then whol budy turns south-east [= direction of beginnings - that is, my personal one] hands taking a bunch of fibers of energy [=the attack] body turning north west [this time in its "relative" job as the direction of waste - opposite to the {personal} direction of beginnings]]and throwing it away.
[-all directions have 2 meanings - the "cardinal" - {see north-east as "direction of silver cord" {the cord from mother's - or lover's - heart to child's\lover heart] and "the relative" - relative to one's personal direction, which is 1 of the 3 gates - south-eats, north-east and north-west. thus "my" "relative" death direction is south-west, while someone whos "gate" or "beginning" direction is north-east will have it as south-east.}]
interpretation, in short:
an effort to get connected to Spirit in order to recieve Inspiration is bloked by "the dragons" (whatever they be) by operating a twisted, thickened place in the energy fibers at the area of bad karma behind (little away of) lower back. (this is a cardinal twist - a change in the whole species, probably affects "the human shape" and\or "the human mold" - and possibly also individual.) It repeats 3 times - 3 fixes a cycle. Then I (the one who seek the advice of the dance) turn to my direction and throw away (to direction of waste, of energy transformation) the violation' or attack, then connect to my source of inspiration [=spirit].
than i wonted to know who this dragons are. for caution's sake, i asked: what is correct for me to know about who thse dragons are?
the answer - just interpretation - in short - they are who the Hoppy Indians call "2 hearts", that is - reptilians, including greys. their heart is split - when they give their heart to something\one, the other heart is moving away. their nose is missing - which deprive their anger of focus, and thus make their ruthlesness very very cruel.
the twist of karma is something they did at the dawn of history, in order to chain our species, enslave it; and yes,
they are in some kind of controll "from heaven" (through our source of inspiration, our link with spirit, which they
twisted) over all (? most?) humans.
Hey, what i'm teaching this days is "the long recap" dance - to let past-life key memories emerge.
would you, Dream Hackers, like to take the workshop?
Well, why focus of petty words? i danced on a question: something like "what's it all about?"
recieved: turning north-east [=direction of being one loves and though physical contact with them was cut - mentaly, or spiritually, it had never been.] both arms extended sideways, palms upwards -[- meaning: seeking contact with Spirit\god\inspiration]. rotating once, untill facing - well - south-west [direction of death] - thouh right hand pointing north-east, palm side-wards inward; left hand bend behind lower back,[=the place of past+past-lives traumas, or bad karma] twisting a little wierd wortex-like move, repeating it 3 times, then whol budy turns south-east [= direction of beginnings - that is, my personal one] hands taking a bunch of fibers of energy [=the attack] body turning north west [this time in its "relative" job as the direction of waste - opposite to the {personal} direction of beginnings]]and throwing it away.
[-all directions have 2 meanings - the "cardinal" - {see north-east as "direction of silver cord" {the cord from mother's - or lover's - heart to child's\lover heart] and "the relative" - relative to one's personal direction, which is 1 of the 3 gates - south-eats, north-east and north-west. thus "my" "relative" death direction is south-west, while someone whos "gate" or "beginning" direction is north-east will have it as south-east.}]
interpretation, in short:
an effort to get connected to Spirit in order to recieve Inspiration is bloked by "the dragons" (whatever they be) by operating a twisted, thickened place in the energy fibers at the area of bad karma behind (little away of) lower back. (this is a cardinal twist - a change in the whole species, probably affects "the human shape" and\or "the human mold" - and possibly also individual.) It repeats 3 times - 3 fixes a cycle. Then I (the one who seek the advice of the dance) turn to my direction and throw away (to direction of waste, of energy transformation) the violation' or attack, then connect to my source of inspiration [=spirit].
than i wonted to know who this dragons are. for caution's sake, i asked: what is correct for me to know about who thse dragons are?
the answer - just interpretation - in short - they are who the Hoppy Indians call "2 hearts", that is - reptilians, including greys. their heart is split - when they give their heart to something\one, the other heart is moving away. their nose is missing - which deprive their anger of focus, and thus make their ruthlesness very very cruel.
the twist of karma is something they did at the dawn of history, in order to chain our species, enslave it; and yes,
they are in some kind of controll "from heaven" (through our source of inspiration, our link with spirit, which they
twisted) over all (? most?) humans.Hey, what i'm teaching this days is "the long recap" dance - to let past-life key memories emerge.
would you, Dream Hackers, like to take the workshop?
Here's a translation of Charlila's post into Russian
charlila писал(а):
«Host», говорит словарь, это «много-много, пучок чего-либо», а также «носитель паразита».
Что-ж, зачем сосредотачиваться на ограниченных словах? Я станцевала на вопрос, что-то вроде «О чем это всё?» Получила: поворот на северо-восток (=направление, означающее, что кто-то любит, но физический контакт с ним пресечен — ментально или духовно, его никогда не было). Обе руки распростерты в стороны, кисти вверх (означает: поиск контакта с Духом/Богом/вдохновением). Один поворот до положения лицом — юго-западу (направление смерти), хотя правая кисть указывает на северо-восток, кисть ребром вовнутрь. Левая кисть согнута сзади нижней части спины (=место прошлых травм и травм с прошлых жизней или плохой кармы) свивая маленькое странное вихреподобное движение, повторяющееся 3 раза в то время как всё тело поворачивается к юго-востоку (=направление начинаний, моё личное), а руки собирают пучок волокон энергии (=атака), тело поворачивается на северо-запад (теперь во временной роли как направление потери — противоположность (персонального) направления начинаний), и он (пучок) выбрасывается прочь.
Все направления имеют 2 значения — «кардинальное» (см. северо-восток как «направление серебряного шнура», соединяющего сердца любимых или матери и ребенка) и «относительное» — относительно собственного направления танцующего, которое является одним из трёх ворот — юго-восток, северо-восток и северо-запад. Т.о. «моё» «относительное» направление смерти — это юго-запад, а если у кого-то направление «ворот» или «начинаний» на северо-востоки, то это был бы юго-восток.
Интерпретация, в кратце:
Попытка соединиться с Духом с целью получить вдохновение блокируется «драконами» (чем бы они ни были) путём создания завихренного сгустка в волокнах энергии в области плохой кармы сзади (недалеко от нижней части спины). Это кардинальный вихрь — перемена во всем человечестве, вероятно затрагивающий «человеческую форму» и/или «человеческий шаблон» — возможно также и индивидуальный. Он повторяется 3 раза — трижды за цикл. Затем я (та, кто ищет совета у танца) поворачиваюсь в своё направление и выбрасываю (в направление потери, энергетической трансформации) насилие или атаку, затем соединяюсь со своим источником вдохновения (=Духом).
Затем я захотела узнать кто эти драконы. Для предусмотрительности я спросила: «что правильно мне будет узнать о том, кто такие эти драконы?»
Ответ — только интерпретация, в вкратце. Они — те, кого (Hoppy?) индейцы называют «два сердца» — рептилии, включая серых. Их сердце разделено — когда они отдают своё сердце кому-либо или чему-либо, другое сердце уходит прочь. У них нет носа, что лишает их злости от сосредоточения, делая таким образом их безжалостность очень очень жестокой. Вихрь кармы есть то, что они сделали на рассвете истории с целью сковать цепями человечество, поработить его. И да, они в некотором смысле обладают контролем «свыше» (через наш источник вдохновения, нашу связь с духом, которую они исказили) над всеми (? большинством ?) людьми.
Кстати, я эти дни занимаюсь обучением танца «глубокого перепросмотра» [the long recap dance] — чтобы высвободить воспоминания ключевых воспоминаний предыдущей жизни.
Хотели бы вы, Хакеры Сновидений, чтобы я провела вам практикум?
Dear Charlila,
That's a very interesting point of view. I've never thought of I-Ching dragons in this way. Nevertheless, it kinda explains, why cutting dragons' heads off will bring good fortune. Thank you for your oppinion.
That's a very interesting point of view. I've never thought of I-Ching dragons in this way. Nevertheless, it kinda explains, why cutting dragons' heads off will bring good fortune. Thank you for your oppinion.
my pleasure, and thanks for the bother to translate it.
but - it's not my opinion; it's what i recieved by dance, which i concider to be Spirit's consultation.
of course i don't expect anyone to take my word for it - just to suspend judgment untill data acumulates.
but - it's not my opinion; it's what i recieved by dance, which i concider to be Spirit's consultation.
of course i don't expect anyone to take my word for it - just to suspend judgment untill data acumulates.
As for my workshop:
THE OPTIMAL STRUCTURE: 5 days
Once the group masters the dance, I want us to perform some common work of opening karma. If you are coming here (recommended!) I'll take you for this somewhere powerful in nature.[ A mountain top +a cave or a deep gorge is about what we need. (1 location viewing far away, another underground.)
[ 1st day is preliminary workshop of finding your personal color (in case you don't know it yet - usually a short procedure) and sewing (and dying, if necessary) a personal suite, by this color, to wear in the workshop. But if you hate sewing, skip it, just bring with you cloths from natural fabric, with no metal and no rubber (skip underwear or create a pair for the purpose!) no black and grey, wide enough to let you move free. Sometimes it takes dying too. The quick ones will prepare ruttle bracelets for all.
I can give some personal lessons while sewing is going on - this would upgrade the rest we will do. i would like to give each student at least 1 personal lesson, better 2. it's about tunning the body to act from a neutral position – 0 surplus effort, 0 stress. By sunset we'll do the first dance lesson, to take it into the night's dreaming.
3 days of 2 daily lessons - sunrise and sunset times. At the break – some swimming, few exercises in water (I can fit the glasses removal workshop into the inevitable long breaks of long recap workshop, if people want to take it.
2 last days – hopefully – are common performing days.
Hey, if you go for it, we can use them to perform The Ceremony of Step-up! (or quickening, or boost) It's some time I know I have to perform it soon – and the time is coming!
It's about advancing toward The Expiration date (hint: it's in the last month of next year) – which is expected to cause everybody to move their ass and frantically consult with death, as DJ used to call it.
For this I have long-awaiting THE CEREMONY OF TAKING OFF MASKS, It is fun, but also emotional great opening…
So: 5 days ,with option to skip most of 1st days, than – the ceremony, which is other 3 days, which you can skip (but this is most of the fun!)
About the mask removal and the ceremony I'll right next time – let me think and get inspired first.
( I can teach it in 4, even 3 days, but I better won't. actually 1 group learned the dance in 2 lessons – total of less than a day - 1 talented girl in 1 lesson. But most students can't do more than 1 hour in one go, and need 2-3 lessons to master the dance. It is pretty exhausting, emotionally. Most people can't dance it more than that. I usually go on until the last student breaks, and I come out quite dizzy myself.)If you want to lower profile, invite me over there and take it as 3 times a week 2 hours 2 weeks workshop – this is also possible. I prefer much the total version.
I never did this workshop with more than 5 people so far – but I believe I'll cope with 15-20. Who said "the human mass"?
translator to russian - the violet paragraghs you can skip tanslating, unless you feel like... and thanks in advance!
THE OPTIMAL STRUCTURE: 5 days
Once the group masters the dance, I want us to perform some common work of opening karma. If you are coming here (recommended!) I'll take you for this somewhere powerful in nature.[ A mountain top +a cave or a deep gorge is about what we need. (1 location viewing far away, another underground.)
[ 1st day is preliminary workshop of finding your personal color (in case you don't know it yet - usually a short procedure) and sewing (and dying, if necessary) a personal suite, by this color, to wear in the workshop. But if you hate sewing, skip it, just bring with you cloths from natural fabric, with no metal and no rubber (skip underwear or create a pair for the purpose!) no black and grey, wide enough to let you move free. Sometimes it takes dying too. The quick ones will prepare ruttle bracelets for all.
I can give some personal lessons while sewing is going on - this would upgrade the rest we will do. i would like to give each student at least 1 personal lesson, better 2. it's about tunning the body to act from a neutral position – 0 surplus effort, 0 stress. By sunset we'll do the first dance lesson, to take it into the night's dreaming.
3 days of 2 daily lessons - sunrise and sunset times. At the break – some swimming, few exercises in water (I can fit the glasses removal workshop into the inevitable long breaks of long recap workshop, if people want to take it.
2 last days – hopefully – are common performing days.
Hey, if you go for it, we can use them to perform The Ceremony of Step-up! (or quickening, or boost) It's some time I know I have to perform it soon – and the time is coming!
It's about advancing toward The Expiration date (hint: it's in the last month of next year) – which is expected to cause everybody to move their ass and frantically consult with death, as DJ used to call it.
For this I have long-awaiting THE CEREMONY OF TAKING OFF MASKS, It is fun, but also emotional great opening…
So: 5 days ,with option to skip most of 1st days, than – the ceremony, which is other 3 days, which you can skip (but this is most of the fun!)
About the mask removal and the ceremony I'll right next time – let me think and get inspired first.
( I can teach it in 4, even 3 days, but I better won't. actually 1 group learned the dance in 2 lessons – total of less than a day - 1 talented girl in 1 lesson. But most students can't do more than 1 hour in one go, and need 2-3 lessons to master the dance. It is pretty exhausting, emotionally. Most people can't dance it more than that. I usually go on until the last student breaks, and I come out quite dizzy myself.)If you want to lower profile, invite me over there and take it as 3 times a week 2 hours 2 weeks workshop – this is also possible. I prefer much the total version.
I never did this workshop with more than 5 people so far – but I believe I'll cope with 15-20. Who said "the human mass"?
translator to russian - the violet paragraghs you can skip tanslating, unless you feel like... and thanks in advance!
i just copy-past my reply to D.K.Meron - my time expired.
~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~ ~ ~ ~
7 is a better number to begin with than 6. worth little waiting.
but there is a huge misunderstanding - it is a DANCE workshop - you can't teach dance by correspondence!
i meant - people coming to my country for a 3-7 days workshop - or otherwise orgnizing it in your place and inviting me to come over.
any chance we do?
if you want an on-line workshop...
sure, why not, but not the dance of long reapitulation.
maybe a preliminary - reccollecting intent, tuning together (to prepare for the work we'll do together), knocking on Death's gate (that is, deliberately intending to link to past life memories. )
you have to ask the people again and have them register again (hpoefully the missing 7th too).
OK?
Meanwhile i'll post the content of this massage on board.
how is it working with the board? where is the russian vertion? (a link?) is it open to the public? you think it should be? if you ask me, i can't see much advantage in hiding it .
~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~ ~ ~ ~
SO: would you go for real life workshop?
would you take the on-line workshop?
~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~ ~ ~ ~
7 is a better number to begin with than 6. worth little waiting.
but there is a huge misunderstanding - it is a DANCE workshop - you can't teach dance by correspondence!
i meant - people coming to my country for a 3-7 days workshop - or otherwise orgnizing it in your place and inviting me to come over.
any chance we do?
if you want an on-line workshop...
sure, why not, but not the dance of long reapitulation.
maybe a preliminary - reccollecting intent, tuning together (to prepare for the work we'll do together), knocking on Death's gate (that is, deliberately intending to link to past life memories. )
you have to ask the people again and have them register again (hpoefully the missing 7th too).
OK?
Meanwhile i'll post the content of this massage on board.
how is it working with the board? where is the russian vertion? (a link?) is it open to the public? you think it should be? if you ask me, i can't see much advantage in hiding it .
~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~ ~ ~ ~
SO: would you go for real life workshop?
would you take the on-line workshop?
~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
to judge by my dreams - (which tend to skip between past present and future) - yes, some will say yes and we'll mannage
to work together; i dreamed some of it already.
skipping linear time... oh, that was in the post that was mysteriousely deleted twice... last ravenna's task.
another was the dream were 2 guys - warriors - drem hackers? went with me to the dead see (it was westward instead of eastward) - i got into the water, a sudden whirlpool threatened to drown me, i got out with a gush of intent.
than we were in Pardes Hanna, saw my ex walking toward us, on the street, i gave him a stone that was at the time on my table and continued walking.
following this dream i prepared a net for the stone (to wear a a jewel) and left it in mt ex's post box.
there were more dreams.
~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
skipping linear time... oh, that was in the post that was mysteriousely deleted twice... last ravenna's task.
another was the dream were 2 guys - warriors - drem hackers? went with me to the dead see (it was westward instead of eastward) - i got into the water, a sudden whirlpool threatened to drown me, i got out with a gush of intent.
than we were in Pardes Hanna, saw my ex walking toward us, on the street, i gave him a stone that was at the time on my table and continued walking.
following this dream i prepared a net for the stone (to wear a a jewel) and left it in mt ex's post box.
there were more dreams.
~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I believe that the word-to-word interpretation that we discussed before would be appropriate to the context.ioneks писал(а):It's a poem, which is a description of the first hexagram of the I-Ching. Here it is, from the very start:
Sideic, any help is welcome, even from russians =)Originating from the term, piercing
advantageous, right and firm.
The dragon lurks: it is no time to act.
The dragon's in the field: now make thy pact.
Be active, watchful, using care and tact.
The dragon leaps; a bursting cataract.
The dragon ploughs the sky with pace exact.
Exceed not, dragon; Lest thy force react.
(If all this heavenly hosts of dragons lacked
their heads, good fortune would become a fact.)
But on the other hand, another thought appeared to me last night. Considering the fact that I-Ching is a means of personal/spiritual transformation, word-to-word translation would make no sense. Let's assume that the "heavenly hosts" are humans and "dragons" are our thoughts. In this case the interpretation would mean that if we prune our heads of unnecessary thoughts, limiting beliefs etc., all that would remain would be pure experience. That's what I would call good fortune.
Since the discussion is about the dragons - I was wondering, what are dragons in dreamworld? Allies? Inorganics? Scouts? Or something else?
Regards,
Hey, Saso.
I'm infused, that the topic found some resonance. Thank you for your response. Your idea about who dragons and hosts are kind of adds new dimension to the consideration of the topic. Charlila's post made similar effect, since her opinion was quite unexpected and unusual too. I'm sure this discussion will lead us to better understanding of this poem (and other poems from that book too).
As to your question, I myself have never seen dragons in dreams (I saw snakes, though). I think dragons may refer to egyptian god Set and his minions. Once Horus defeated Set. After some time people started to consider Set evil. Since then in many myths heroes defeat dragons and snake-like monsters. But in China, as far as I know, even in nowadays dragons are considered good. I think it's because they've preserved their traditions unchanged since the times when Set was considered good by most people (before the Horus age had come).
I'm infused, that the topic found some resonance. Thank you for your response. Your idea about who dragons and hosts are kind of adds new dimension to the consideration of the topic. Charlila's post made similar effect, since her opinion was quite unexpected and unusual too. I'm sure this discussion will lead us to better understanding of this poem (and other poems from that book too).
As to your question, I myself have never seen dragons in dreams (I saw snakes, though). I think dragons may refer to egyptian god Set and his minions. Once Horus defeated Set. After some time people started to consider Set evil. Since then in many myths heroes defeat dragons and snake-like monsters. But in China, as far as I know, even in nowadays dragons are considered good. I think it's because they've preserved their traditions unchanged since the times when Set was considered good by most people (before the Horus age had come).
I'm glad to put a different perspective on the subject.ioneks писал(а):Hey, Saso.
I'm infused, that the topic found some resonance. Thank you for your response. Your idea about who dragons and hosts are kind of adds new dimension to the consideration of the topic. Charlila's post made similar effect, since her opinion was quite unexpected and unusual too. I'm sure this discussion will lead us to better understanding of this poem (and other poems from that book too).
Interesting point of view. I recall reading some channeled materials from Set about dreams, multidimensionality and similar but I never thought about connecting him with dragons. I mean, as far as I know, dragons were "around" long before Ancient Egypt.ioneks писал(а):As to your question, I myself have never seen dragons in dreams (I saw snakes, though). I think dragons may refer to egyptian god Set and his minions. Once Horus defeated Set. After some time people started to consider Set evil. Since then in many myths heroes defeat dragons and snake-like monsters. But in China, as far as I know, even in nowadays dragons are considered good. I think it's because they've preserved their traditions unchanged since the times when Set was considered good by most people (before the Horus age had come).
[quote=saso]Let's assume that the "heavenly hosts" are humans and "dragons" are our thoughts. In this case the
interpretation would mean that if we prune our heads of unnecessary thoughts, limiting beliefs etc., all that would
remain would be pure experience. That's what I would call good fortune.
[/quote]
[quote=charlila...]
...[they are] "... reptilians, including greys. the twist of karma is something they did at the dawn of history, in order to chain our species, enslave it; and yes, they are in some kind of control "from heaven" (through our source of inspiration, our link with spirit, which they twisted) over all (? most?) humans.
[/quote]
less difference than it seems between what we say - "thoughts" for most people are what practically left from the link with Spirit - and thoughts sure represent the dragons... while getting rid of thoughts would cut off the dragons' mind control.
"heavenly hosts" are humans? hmm... what's so heavenly about humans?
[/quote][quote=charlila...]
...[they are] "... reptilians, including greys. the twist of karma is something they did at the dawn of history, in order to chain our species, enslave it; and yes, they are in some kind of control "from heaven" (through our source of inspiration, our link with spirit, which they twisted) over all (? most?) humans.
[/quote]
less difference than it seems between what we say - "thoughts" for most people are what practically left from the link with Spirit - and thoughts sure represent the dragons... while getting rid of thoughts would cut off the dragons' mind control.
"heavenly hosts" are humans? hmm... what's so heavenly about humans?
Well, I don't know... I mean, I am familiar with the theory of reptilian mind and therefore can agree with you about getting rid of dragons' mind control by eliminating thoughts, but on the other hand I also believe that what you refer to as "the link with Spirit" is hidden within us, somewhere between the thoughts (and with "thoughts" i think not only of "random thoughts" that run through our minds but also our belief systems, the way we perceive and interpret the world around us etc.). And as far as I understand, what we're trying to do here is to find that link and reconnect with the Spirit so that we can expand and explore what I believe to be unlimited possibilities beyond the domain of ordinary human perception.charlila писал(а):less difference than it seems between what we say - "thoughts" for most people are what practically left from the link with Spirit - and thoughts sure represent the dragons... while getting rid of thoughts would cut off the dragons' mind control.
I understand what you mean. Truth be told, I even agree with you. But still – as far as I see it, each of us has the potential to evolve beyond limiting human beliefs and to explore realities that exist far beyond our wildest imagination. Wouldn't you call that at least a little bit heavenly?charlila писал(а):"heavenly hosts" are humans? hmm... what's so heavenly about humans?
The poem listed above is only the one poem of many. Dragons are mentioned in a number of poems. The next such poem is
#2. Let's see if it'll clarify who dragons are.
One more thing, The first poem is about hexagram #1, “The Creative”. All 6 lines are Yang. The next hexagram, #2, “The Receptive” is the direct opposite of the first hexagram: all its 6 lines are Yin. So the meaning of the 2th poem is expexted to be the direct opposite of the 1st one (in some sense). I thought this may help to understand.
As far as I understood, the first verse is saying about somebody very powerful, a true man. But, despite his power the man can't move on his own. Maybe the situation is too hard for him to manage, so the only thing he can do is to follow somebody or something.
The third verse (in brackets) is saying, that one should improve oneself's conducting ability (possibly, the ability to follow, mentioned in the first verse), in which case the one will have good fortune. So the meaning is the same: don't do things on your own, just obey and follow others, and good fortune will be yours.
As far as I see, the first verse in poems #1 and the first verse in poem #2 has the opposite meaning. In the 1st hexagram, it is said, that the one is capable of doing things and noone can predict or impede them. In the first verse of the 2nd hexagram the one is unable to do things on his own, he only can follow others.
In such way, we may expect the third verse of both poems to have opposite meanings. This may help to understand the meaning of the third verse of the 1st hexagram.
One more thing, The first poem is about hexagram #1, “The Creative”. All 6 lines are Yang. The next hexagram, #2, “The Receptive” is the direct opposite of the first hexagram: all its 6 lines are Yin. So the meaning of the 2th poem is expexted to be the direct opposite of the 1st one (in some sense). I thought this may help to understand.
There are things not very clear to me, so, please correct me if my understanging is wrong (my English is not good enough). I appreciate it very much.Hexagram #2, “The Receptive” писал(а): Great, originating, right and fair,
piercing and helpful, firm as in the mare.
If the true man should move, his feet will stray;
for him to follow is his proper way.
Hoar-frost! The strong one cometh by and by.
Straight, square and great, advantage springs to aye.
Maintain, but boast not virtue's majesty.
Here is a sack made safe by skillful tie.
Behold the yellow skirt; ill fortune fly.
Dragons at war: Gold, blood and porphyry.
(Correct and firm the conduct, thou shalt spy
good fortune from the sky.)
As far as I understood, the first verse is saying about somebody very powerful, a true man. But, despite his power the man can't move on his own. Maybe the situation is too hard for him to manage, so the only thing he can do is to follow somebody or something.
The third verse (in brackets) is saying, that one should improve oneself's conducting ability (possibly, the ability to follow, mentioned in the first verse), in which case the one will have good fortune. So the meaning is the same: don't do things on your own, just obey and follow others, and good fortune will be yours.
As far as I see, the first verse in poems #1 and the first verse in poem #2 has the opposite meaning. In the 1st hexagram, it is said, that the one is capable of doing things and noone can predict or impede them. In the first verse of the 2nd hexagram the one is unable to do things on his own, he only can follow others.
In such way, we may expect the third verse of both poems to have opposite meanings. This may help to understand the meaning of the third verse of the 1st hexagram.
I could agree with that. What I can't understand is why a person of such power should merely follow. I mean, if there would only be followers, we would still believe that the Earth is flat… But on the other hand, since it is a hexagram called "The Receptive", it could also mean that a nudge, a push in the right direction or something alike is required for someone to embark... let's say on a new path.ioneks писал(а):As far as I understood, the first verse is saying about somebody very powerful, a true man. But, despite his power the man can't move on his own. Maybe the situation is too hard for him to manage, so the only thing he can do is to follow somebody or something.
I think that the conduct in this case is the person leading, being in charge – therefore good fortune (of the team/of the one that follows?) is in a way dependent on the abilities of the leader.ioneks писал(а):The third verse (in brackets) is saying, that one should improve oneself's conducting ability (possibly, the ability to follow, mentioned in the first verse), in which case the one will have good fortune. So the meaning is the same: don't do things on your own, just obey and follow others, and good fortune will be yours.
I find this rather confusing. I mean, the I-Ching is supposed to be about changes and transformation, while not being able to do things but only to follow gives me kind of a negative impression. Probably I'm just not seeing something...ioneks писал(а):As far as I see, the first verse in poems #1 and the first verse in poem #2 has the opposite meaning. In the 1st hexagram, it is said, that the one is capable of doing things and noone can predict or impede them. In the first verse of the 2nd hexagram the one is unable to do things on his own, he only can follow others.
The only obvious connection between the first and the second hexagram that I see is the last line of the second verse in "The Receptivity" hexagram, sayingioneks писал(а):In such way, we may expect the third verse of both poems to have opposite meanings. This may help to understand the meaning of the third verse of the 1st hexagram.
If we continue to assume that the dragons are (our) thoughts, this could explain the ever lasting conflict in man – the struggle for money, power and natural resources.Dragons at war: Gold, blood and porphyry.
I hope this helps in any way...
Regards,
Hello, Saso!
I'm sure our discussion will throw light upon the question. Originally, I had no intention of discussing I-Ching, I only had problems with understanding English. I couldn't imagine that somebody will be interested in discussing I-Ching with me. But it happened, and I'm happy about it, because my understanding will grow deeper.
Let me say some words about the I-Ching.
Originally, the I-Ching was supposed to perform divination with it. The one, who asks the I-Ching about his current situation and its expected future development, throws yarrow stalks to cast two hexagrams: the one that describes the current situation, and the other one that describes the next situation, that will come after the current situation (I won't go into details of the procedure, they are not essential right now).
For example, if someone has problems with his money, he may consult the I-Ching to understand, what causes the problems with the money and what will happen after a while (maybe money will come, maybe even worse situation will happen).
Each hexagram is a linear combination of 6 lines (each line is called yao). Each yao can be either a broken line (called Yin) or a solid line (called Yang). There are 64 possible combinations of Yins and Yangs (for 6 lines), that's why there is a total of 64 hexagrams.
So each of 64 hexagrams describes the 64 different types of situations (not changes). And the properties of each situation are caused by Yins and Yangs in certain positions. That is why I said, that the situations, which are described by the 1st and the 2nd hexagrams must be opposite. Because Yang is an opposite of Yin.
For example, the hexagram #1, “The Creative” is a combination of 6 Yangs (all 6 lines of the hexagram are solid). It is a situation, when a man is powerful, he is a master of his life (at least for now). This is how Yang works; piercing, advantageous, firm — those are properties of Yang, the male origin, and we see those properties in the poem.
The hexagram #2, “The Receptive”, is a combination of 6 Yins (all 6 lines are broken). Its a situation, where one is unable to do anything, but follow something or someone (also, at least for now). This is how Yin works; being weak, open, amenable — those are properties of Yin, the female origin, and we see, those properties in the second poem.
I'm sure our discussion will throw light upon the question. Originally, I had no intention of discussing I-Ching, I only had problems with understanding English. I couldn't imagine that somebody will be interested in discussing I-Ching with me. But it happened, and I'm happy about it, because my understanding will grow deeper.
Let me say some words about the I-Ching.
Originally, the I-Ching was supposed to perform divination with it. The one, who asks the I-Ching about his current situation and its expected future development, throws yarrow stalks to cast two hexagrams: the one that describes the current situation, and the other one that describes the next situation, that will come after the current situation (I won't go into details of the procedure, they are not essential right now).
For example, if someone has problems with his money, he may consult the I-Ching to understand, what causes the problems with the money and what will happen after a while (maybe money will come, maybe even worse situation will happen).
Each hexagram is a linear combination of 6 lines (each line is called yao). Each yao can be either a broken line (called Yin) or a solid line (called Yang). There are 64 possible combinations of Yins and Yangs (for 6 lines), that's why there is a total of 64 hexagrams.
So each of 64 hexagrams describes the 64 different types of situations (not changes). And the properties of each situation are caused by Yins and Yangs in certain positions. That is why I said, that the situations, which are described by the 1st and the 2nd hexagrams must be opposite. Because Yang is an opposite of Yin.
For example, the hexagram #1, “The Creative” is a combination of 6 Yangs (all 6 lines of the hexagram are solid). It is a situation, when a man is powerful, he is a master of his life (at least for now). This is how Yang works; piercing, advantageous, firm — those are properties of Yang, the male origin, and we see those properties in the poem.
The hexagram #2, “The Receptive”, is a combination of 6 Yins (all 6 lines are broken). Its a situation, where one is unable to do anything, but follow something or someone (also, at least for now). This is how Yin works; being weak, open, amenable — those are properties of Yin, the female origin, and we see, those properties in the second poem.
Saso писал(а): as far as I see it, each of us has the potential to evolve beyond limiting human beliefs and to explore realities that exist far beyond our wildest imagination. Wouldn't you call that at least a little bit heavenly?
no. "potential to evolve" is not Here and Now. as DJ said, (back-translated from memory) one needs steel balls and the adequate body to sustain them in order to explore the unknown.
i-ching's advise is given to the asker, therefore - it's the follower's conduct which is discussed.Saso писал(а):I think that the conduct in this case is the person leading,... – therefore good fortune (of the team/of the one that follows?) is in a way dependent on the abilities of the leader.
not necessarily. could be anything within your action field while being led.ioneks писал(а):(possibly, the ability to follow, mentioned in the first verse)
I see. Since I am not very familliar with I-Ching I saw this as an opportunity to learn something new. But it's also ok, if you only need help regarding translations. By the way, thank you for the explanation about it.ioneks писал(а):Hello, Saso!
I'm sure our discussion will throw light upon the question. Originally, I had no intention of discussing I-Ching, I only had problems with understanding English. I couldn't imagine that somebody will be interested in discussing I-Ching with me. But it happened, and I'm happy about it, because my understanding will grow deeper.
Let me say some words about the I-Ching. …
any change of luck?
charlila are you alone here?
what do you mean, kiddo?warsfeil писал(а):charlila are you alone here?
seems the answer is yes - but, seems also things are not as they seem.
seems my fate is to be seemingly alone, with all side effects, with no apparent proof i'm not.
can you tell me anything new?
so?
am i alone here?
am i alone here?